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Protecting others

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Protecting others

Post  Colin Marcus on Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:43 am

In Early CorD campaign, I remember trying to work in more teamwork into the games. Trying to take point in battle, and defend others... however we don't really have a mechanic for that. Marvel had something... but you just automatically take the hit... Like failing a juggling catch against daggers. That kind of sucks. THAT wasn't the goal at all.

So if you want to help protect other people... our choices were..

1) Prevent someone from doing what they wanted on their turn... You don't get to attack your target because I say so... That's kind of garbage!

2) Automatically take the hit. Because you don't get in their way... then dodge. Makes no sense. Also sucks... (with new armor rules, that may have useful potential...) You shouldn't Automatically get hit.

So after a couple of conversations including Parrying for others, Acting as a Shield, etc.
I Had an idea about the "protecting others" idea.

Also I'm more interested in all characters at all times, as opposed to kits that specialize. Kits can get cooler, better abilities... This is a couple of ideas for everyone.

In the vein of You make yourself the target... What IF....

You do not Improve your partners AC... You GIVE them your AC. Reasoning, If you are making your partner harder to hit... you are NOT making YOURSELF harder to hit.

Don't know what numbers you want to go... but lets just say 1/2 right now. When you are trying to protect your partner they get 1/2 your AC added to theirs. You are blocking the attacks for them.

If there is only one enemy, this won't make much difference. They are still attacking their target, not you... but the odds are that they may miss now. (UNLESS... they chose to take an inititative hit and switch targets.) I can see Mega Evil aiming at Therogeon and Elric stepping in front of him. Suddenly MegaEvil says "Fine, You want it... its yours!" And smites ELric. In fact if someone steps into the area of attack, I'd probably let the attacker switch targets without a penalty. However since Elric is trying to stay inbetween bad guy and therogeon... he CAN"T defend/dodge out of the way like he normally would, so his AC is only half what it should be.

Also if there are MULTIPLE enemies, it can get dangerous. Two Shadow Dwarves Attack Ashara, Elric intercepts them. THey are still trying to get her, though her AC just got 1/2 of -7 added on to it. Odds are they missed, 'Yay teamwork'. However this in no way affects the 3 shadow dwarves attacking ELRIC. He's not paying attention to THEM... SO his AC is half as effective against everyone else. Such is the price for the meatshield.


So Bonus to your ally.

Penalty for you.

Takes into account WHERE your AC comes from (Dex, Armor, Shield, Magic etc)

Opinions?


Last edited by Elric on Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Colin Marcus
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Re: Protecting others

Post  Eddick the Steady (XIV) on Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:11 am

A lot of this function is would be taken care of with more attention to placement of characters, area, and movement. Things that we don't generally do. The reason we have the two solutions we do is because we don't use the rules we already have. Let me add some options with the rules that we do not use.

1. If a fighter is in front of a mage, then he is able to intercept melee combat coming from that direction. If the enemy decided to go past the fighter to the mage, the fighter gains an "attack of opportunity" with the possibility that they might slay the enemy, thereby protecting the ally. Also, the enemy, when engaged with the mage, opens up their back to the fighter, who gains bonuses to hit the enemy from the rear. This amounts to an extra attack (of opportunity) every round against a foe who turns their back to them, negation of Dex and Shield bonuses, a bonus of +2 to attack, and a possible backstab if the character has such an ability.

2. The fighter (or anyone for that matter) can use a block maneuver. The block is an attack against an incoming weapon. There is no rule that prevents this being used on attacks coming in on adjacent characters. They make an attack roll on AC 4 and if their attack roll is lower than the attack roll of the incoming blow, they can block it.

3. Taunting an enemy may cause them to attack you instead. This is a role playing option that DMs might allow. Fast talking is a proficiency that might also be used in such a situation.

4. The fighter can disarm the enemy, thus protecting both of them

5. The fighter can grapple the enemy, bringing them both to the ground.

Adding to someone elses AC would change their AC for every incoming attack, something that a real life defender would have trouble with. At least that is how I envision it in my head. Sure a defender could protect against one attacker, a skilled defender could against two, but every incoming attack? Wouldn't such a defense actually hinder the movement of the one being protected as well? Should they not get their dex bonus because their defender is all over them, protecting them to death?

I personally believe these previous options I stated are enough, or at least would be enough if they were used. If you wanted a character to specialize in protecting others, a fighting style or proficiency or feat would be necessary. The things that the current system uses to add to AC are close and personal: Armor, Dex, Parry bonus, Shield. These things are specifically designed for one to protect one self. People today act as human shields for people (like the president) by taking blows for them. It seems like a viable choice. One would think with our sophistication, we might have come up with something better, but we really have not. scratch
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Re: Protecting others

Post  Colin Marcus on Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:00 pm

DISCLAIMER: I had a really well thought out and awesome response, but it got when I tried to preview.... So This is MK II.



Eddick the Steady (XIV) wrote:1. If a fighter is in front of a mage, then he is able to intercept melee combat coming from that direction. If the enemy decided to go past the fighter to the mage, the fighter gains an "attack of opportunity" with the possibility that they might slay the enemy, thereby protecting the ally. Also, the enemy, when engaged with the mage, opens up their back to the fighter, who gains bonuses to hit the enemy from the rear. This amounts to an extra attack (of opportunity) every round against a foe who turns their back to them, negation of Dex and Shield bonuses, a bonus of +2 to attack, and a possible backstab if the character has such an ability.

Yeah... We really don't mess with Attacks of Opportunity. Even in the 3rd edition WoT game we ditched those. If I recall correctly you got an AoO everytime you passed someone. Every time they came to close to you, if their back was to you, and for a few other reasons. ALL dealt with before initative was ever rolled.

Some people (crews... Smile ) has been wanting to change the combat for a while so mutliple attacks don't all happen at once anymore... Add in 4 attacks that happened before the round even starts... it was a can of worms we just avoided.


Eddick the Steady (XIV) wrote:
2. The fighter (or anyone for that matter) can use a block maneuver. The block is an attack against an incoming weapon. There is no rule that prevents this being used on attacks coming in on adjacent characters. They make an attack roll on AC 4 and if their attack roll is lower than the attack roll of the incoming blow, they can block it.

I kind of like this, but isn't it based on the system that you only get as many blocks/parries as you do attacks? I never liked that system. Also don't you have to win initative to attack the weapon, and wouldn't it just make more sense to kill the bad guy so it isn't an issue anymore?

Also knowing Pat's history with Disarm charts, I doubt all weapons would be AC 4 and theres' no mention of different skill abilities. If I have a Thac0 of 5... why do you get to block my attack with only an attack against AC4?


Eddick the Steady (XIV) wrote:3. Taunting an enemy may cause them to attack you instead. This is a role playing option that DMs might allow. Fast talking is a proficiency that might also be used in such a situation.

Bahh... That would RARELY work... Too many bad guys already have it in their minds what they want to do that round. nothing you say is going to change their minds... unless your a Kender!

Also only works against humanoid creatures that you can speak their language (that's why my dwarf knows Orcish!) If you want to protect someone from a fire beetle.... no such luck.


Eddick the Steady (XIV) wrote:4. The fighter can disarm the enemy, thus protecting both of them

Done that! Always a winner! Still based on inititive and the fact they are holding weapons!


Eddick the Steady (XIV) wrote:5. The fighter can grapple the enemy, bringing them both to the ground.

Very situational specific. Can't think of a character or situation that I've run into lately that dragging him to the ground would have HELPED the situation... Also based on intiative, and its the only thing you can do that round.



Eddick the Steady (XIV) wrote:Adding to someone elses AC would change their AC for every incoming attack, something that a real life defender would have trouble with. At least that is how I envision it in my head. Sure a defender could protect against one attacker, a skilled defender could against two, but every incoming attack? Wouldn't such a defense actually hinder the movement of the one being protected as well? Should they not get their dex bonus because their defender is all over them, protecting them to death?

I think that would be situational. If I'm guarding someone, and they get flanked from behind THEM... Then my bonus does nothing for them. There's only so much I can do. If we're in a hallway or bottleneck and everyone has to either throw things or get past me... and I'm standing there with a sword and shield out.... Yeah. I can see them getting the AC bonus. Unless they bear me to the ground or kill me or whatever... I'm there, and they have a harder time aiming at whose behind me.

But that doesnt' mean they HAVE to aim at me. It would be more expedient... but if they still want to aim at whoevers behind me... they can. But theres nothing as a player that I can do to say who the NPCs HAVE to attack.

Like football and trying to get the Quarterback. Its a lot harder to do if you have a line of warriors between the enemy and the Quarterback. cheers

At least so I hear.... Being a lions fan, I've never actually SEEN it...

My gosh... I think I just made a football analagy... WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TOO!!!!! affraid

Eddick the Steady (XIV) wrote: I personally believe these previous options I stated are enough, or at least would be enough if they were used. If you wanted a character to specialize in protecting others, a fighting style or proficiency or feat would be necessary. The things that the current system uses to add to AC are close and personal: Armor, Dex, Parry bonus, Shield. These things are specifically designed for one to protect one self.

Also Cover, Concealment, darkness, range, magic... Wink I don't really see AC as 'close and personal'. In its simplest form AC is just 'how hard it is to hit someone.' The Next question is whether having someone standing there with weapons and shield out, makes the guy behind him harder to hit?

Whether by magic, armor, dex or meatshield... the flavor text is irrelevant. Either they were hit or not.

Eddick the Steady (XIV) wrote:People today act as human shields for people (like the president) by taking blows for them. It seems like a viable choice. One would think with our sophistication, we might have come up with something better, but we really have not. scratch

ehh that's because there isn't much to do against guns. in the old days we had tower sheild walls, and pikeman barriers and all SORTS of fun stuff.

Still I think that's the way Marvel did it. If you wanted to help someone you automatically take full damage. That sucks. Ususally.

I CAN see that being a viable option for SOME situations. Ranged attacks come to mind. I can honestly see Elric jumping in front of an arrow if it seemed important enough. Crazy Paladin however would throw himself in front of it AND RAISE HIS SHIELD! The Swashbuckler used to try to intercept bad guys all the time, but they never dropped their weapons.

There's a world of difference between wanting to help a friend out of a jam, and throwing yourself on someones sword...


1) Yeah... I don't think this version was as eloquent as the original....

2) Anyone want to see how many different ways I spelled 'Initative'? tongue
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Re: Protecting others

Post  Swiftboot on Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:36 pm

well, one of the ways this might be helped is if i ever get the initiative thing off the ground. that allows you to block specific attacks too, regardless of the initiative of the attack. it's like moving your weapon or shield or whatever to intercept that specific attack. what it doesn't allow you to do is block everything coming at you. so if you have 4 attackers, it gets harder to block them all, let's face it, who really can?

the basics are, as i think matt mentioned, you get normal attacks which you may substitute a parry for. thus a warrior that has 2 attacks in a round can block one attack and parry another. he can't parry a ton of things unless he is better, which makes some sense. also, other classes have a harder time, basically, they don't have the knowhow and training to do so. and of course multiple weapons help.

this would also allow a character to block specific attacks at other players, or at least attempt to.

however, the system still has flaws, and i need to work some stuff out yet, then play test it.
but this is one idea to the solution.
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