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Too many proficiencies!!

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Too many proficiencies!!

Post  Colin Marcus on Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:03 am

Well, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that having 40+ proficencies not used 'may' be a bit much. I've heard we want to change it for the next campaign and to change it in the book.

Here's a couple of ideas, Anything look good?

Based of Fighter XP, and average intelligence. Geniuses (18) still get an extra one, but then they should Smile




Personally I kind of like the every Even level version. You don't have to wait till 6-7th level to get that little shot in the arm, it doesn't stack at the same time as the base Proficiencies (since everyone gets them like warriors now) When you get 3 every 3rd level, you don't need another 10 at the same time Shocked . Its not overwhelming numbers. With all the extra feats and such, you will still have to choose carefully what you want. Instead of now where the only limitation is where/how did you take time to learn it.

Any other suggestions?


Last edited by Elric on Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Chart looks like crap...)
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  Eddick the Steady (XIV) on Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:28 pm

Why don't we go with one a level +1 every (20-Int) Levels?

A person with Int 18 gets one every other level in addition to one every level, 17 every three levels, 14 every six.

Just another option
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  WoTmaster on Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:57 am

Elric wrote:Well, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that having 40+ proficencies not used 'may' be a bit much. I've heard we want to change it for the next campaign and to change it in the book.

Here's a couple of ideas, Anything look good?

Based of Fighter XP, and average intelligence. Geniuses (18) still get an extra one, but then they should Smile




Personally I kind of like the every Even level version. You don't have to wait till 6-7th level to get that little shot in the arm, it doesn't stack at the same time as the base Proficiencies (since everyone gets them like warriors now) When you get 3 every 3rd level, you don't need another 10 at the same time Shocked . Its not overwhelming numbers. With all the extra feats and such, you will still have to choose carefully what you want. Instead of now where the only limitation is where/how did you take time to learn it.

Any other suggestions?

addition error... by my count it is only 21 not 31 for the every even levels...
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  WoTmaster on Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:59 am

Eddick the Steady (XIV) wrote:Why don't we go with one a level +1 every (20-Int) Levels?

A person with Int 18 gets one every other level in addition to one every level, 17 every three levels, 14 every six.

Just another option

Huh?? I'm confused what you mean on this, could you explain it another way?
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  Colin Marcus on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:05 am

mmm... Heaven knows I'm not one to stick by my math skills, but I'm still hitting 31. Are you counting the 17 from the first "base" column? The +2 every even level are the bonus profs in addition to the normal ones we always got. So 17 + 14 = 31

The only one to NOT get the base profs is the last column. And Ben's suggestion.
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  WoTmaster on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:19 am

Ok, I missunderstood how this was set up. I thought you counted the base 7 and then the + for every other level were instead of the original plusses.... didn't realize they were in addition to them...

I see now. Thanks.
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  Colin Marcus on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:25 am

WoTmaster wrote:
Eddick the Steady (XIV) wrote:Why don't we go with one a level +1 every (20-Int) Levels?

A person with Int 18 gets one every other level in addition to one every level, 17 every three levels, 14 every six.

Just another option

Huh?? I'm confused what you mean on this, could you explain it another way?

Its kind of a complete rewrite of gaining proficiencies. Right now we get 2 every 3 levels. Bens plan would be 1 every level. Automatically giving you 3 every 3 so theres an extra one there.

So you get one prof every level. Then you would gain 1 every, 20-Int score levels. If youve 18 int you get a bonus one every 2 levels. If you have a 15 Int you get one every 5 levels.

That's what he was trying to say.

I kind of like the idea, but I would rather see broader catagories. like 19 Int = every 1 level. 18-16 Int = every 2 levels 15 and lower = every 3 levels.
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  WoTmaster on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:31 am

Elric wrote:Then you would gain 1 every, 20-Int score levels.

This is the part I don't understand. What does 20-Int (intellegence) score levels mean?

Elric wrote:I kind of like the idea, but I would rather see broader catagories. like 19 Int = every 1 level. 18-16 Int = every 2 levels 15 and lower = every 3 levels.

This would make more sense to me!


Sorry, feeling like a noob here...
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  Colin Marcus on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:36 am

Just math. If you have an 18 int. 20 - 18 = 2. 20-15 = 5.

Its Ben's way of saying that smarter people get proficiencies more often.
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  WoTmaster on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:38 am

Oh, 20 Minus Intelligence.... I thought it was some code or something

20 dash intelligence...

lol.

"boy do I feel sheepish..." Embarassed
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  Colin Marcus on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:44 am

LOL Got it!

I was actually talking with ben on Chat saturday so I had a better understanding where he was going with it Smile

My concern is how great a difference there is between a 15 int and a 16 int....or even an 18 and a 17... Its got its own kind of logic, I just don't want to see EVERY character with a 17-18 intelligence.

I kind of do that ANYWAY with the languages bonus we get to start... Embarassed but I don't know... I like the range a little better
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  WoTmaster on Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:16 pm

That is true. I think you have a good point there... It would definently change how stats were allotted if your one point here or there could mean a difference of how many/how often you get proficiencies. especially the like 17-16-15 range... makes the 1-2 number difference HUGE! 1 every 3 compared to 1 every 5 is a big difference. Then when you get down to the characters who have a 13 intelligence (still above average) and you only get 1 every 7 levels... For a lot of our characters that would only be 1. not many get to level 14+

So if you had a fighter with an intel of 13 you would get your normal base 17 and 1 more. That isn't much.

I like something like this if we go this route...
Intel 19 & 20 +1 every level
17 & 18 every 2nd level
15 & 16 every 3rd
13 & 14 every 4th
11 & 12 every 5th
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  Swiftboot on Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:43 pm

well, now i see a little problem. i agree we need to clean this up, but i really don't want to over complicate it. also, while i do agree that a more intelligent character would have a better nack for learning multiple profs, we now have several weapon styles plus many more abilities that may not fall into an intelligence area. yes, i suppose a smart warrior can learn different styles easier, but a good warrior may also know alot about fighting, and less about everything else, thus the int stat kinda becomes null for that area. almost like when matt was creating characters with a high str only for the purpose of att and dmg, but played a much lower str. now that we have profs to cover things like that better, there is no real need to do it that way. but i'd hate to do that with int to create a better more versitile fighter. (there are other classes that would work the same way too, fighter is just the first that popped into my head)
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  The Sub-Creator on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:18 pm

I can see the point you're making, Crews, and it's a good one. However, there are basically two abilities in 2nd Ed. that don't do a thing for everyone: Intelligence and Charisma. Now, the former gives you more profs from the get-go, but beyond that (unless you've got a score around 19+, which gives you bonuses to see through illusions), Intelligence does no one but wizards any good. Charisma has other uses, but we don't emphasize them in the way we play (reaction adjustments and the like).

High Strength gives anyone who has it bonuses to hit and damage; high Dexterity gives anyone ranged to-hit modifiers and AC bonuses; high Constitution gives anyone additional hit points; high Wisdom increases saves against mind-affecting spells. These all have legit bonuses to those whose scores are high enough. I decided for this campaign to attach proficiency rate gain to Intelligence. That was just kind of my idea with what could help make Intelligence a more useful ability for anyone, like the others. The problem, of course, is that I didn't put much thought into the math of it, and just through out something. It got absurd, without question.

I start to become afraid if we start to cater proficiencies to every class. If you have a high strength score, and are a fighter, then you get lots of proficiencies; if you have a high Wisdon score, and are a cleric, then you get lots of proficiencies, etc. This just makes it too easy for anyone to garner extra proficiencies for simply being what they already are. The problem with my idea of issuing proficiencies based on Intelligence is that mages, then, automatically get this bonus catered to them. That could be seen as a problem, really, and I won't argue that it is one, although I would also argue that, being a learned individual, as most mages are, it makes the most sense to me that they should receive the benefit of the doubt where gaining those bonus proficiencies are concerned.

Again, though, I see your point. With all of these new warrior proficiencies out there (styles and such), it makes sense that warriors could very well devote themselves to the study of combat, and should be able to learn a great deal about it. Same goes with any class, in fact. Thieves now have an automatic out: they can turn in percentage points from thieving abilities and convert them to additional proficiency slots. Clerics and Warriors have no such ability. It's something of a conundrum. A part of me says that for a warrior to devote himself to combat techniques is still possible in the system, and any warrior that is smarter than other warriors would naturally have the ability to become more adept at various things, which this system still maintains.

For what it's worth, I do like the combination of Ben's and Holly's ideas, simply because of what Matt stated: It opens up the field a bit more, giving you more profs than you would get in the old system (even if you didn't get an additional modifier), but it also advocates bonus proficiencies for intelligences ranging as low as 11. Honestly, few of our characters ever have an intelligence score lower than that, and while it does sometimes happen, a character with an intelligence of 10 or lower probably doesn't really deserve any bonus proficiencies anyway. Plus, a character in this system (1 prof a level, with additions) will never get more than 40 proficiencies (within the standard 20-level range), and then only if they're intelligence is beyond normal human ranges. The most intelligent human mage will only receive 30. Fighters who choose to take a high intelligence instead of a high strength can take feats and proficiencies to help compensate for not gaining the bonuses to hit and damage, but most feats have penalties that coincide with the bonuses, so they're giving up a sure thing to do it. The system has advantages and drawbacks.

However, I am in favor of anyone who wishes to put forth more ideas, and we'll see how all those ideas mesh. Smile

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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  Eddick the Steady (XIV) on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:26 pm

wow. you mean you actually see a point to weapon and non weapon proficiencies? thats amazing!
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  Colin Marcus on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:39 pm

Whoa... whoa.. whoa! Lets not go getting crazy talk here! affraid
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  The Sub-Creator on Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:09 pm

Let me also go on record here as saying that I believe the Intelligence system of gaining additional proficiencies does nothing to hinder the separation of a good fighter from an intelligent fighter. A fighter with low intelligence will still gain proficiencies, and is capable of using those proficiencies however he likes. If he chooses to learn only combat styles and combat abilities to the exclusion of all else, that's the choice of the player. That's why we're constantly working at adding more and more profs/feats, so that people can make a character however they want. That said, it's also possible to make a fighter who primarily chooses combat-specific profs/feats, but has one or two non-combat areas.

Lower intelligence doesn't mean you still don't have plenty of proficiencies to choose from; it simply means you don't have as many proficiencies to choose from.

My point is that I can see the issue he may have with the proficiency talley catering to mage types, and it's a valid point to take issue with. I believe that the system works adequately for all classes though, and gives Intelligence a purpose for all characters, as I noted in my last post.

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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  xarhelm on Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:06 am

What about adding in a system where you could take character flaws for a bonus proficies?
For example your fighter has an 18/26 strength so he can just about lift a house however you can take the flaw of "bull in a china shop" meaning he has little control over his strength. pick up a house yes pick up an egg no.
For a mage we all know the highly intellegent but no common sense folks in the real world, why not extend it to the game. Most mages spend time in towers and libraries how often do the really see the outside world.
I think it further fleshes out the PC and would help those with lower int scores to gain abilities that cater to their strengths and class. plus the flaws give the DM something to exploit as plot points and general color in campaign.
Depending on the severity of the handicap you could have 1 or 2 proficiency slots awarded.
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  The Sub-Creator on Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:25 pm

I could actually that idea having some validity, Arik, and the beauty of it would be that you don't even have to work up flaws to go in a book, because the players could put together such hindrances for themselves without those aids. When a player chooses to place hindrances (which must be accompanied by some legitimate penalty in stat form) upon their characters, I see no reason why that couldn't be brought to the DM of the campaign being run, at which time, said DM could decide upon the number of bonus profs to allow that character.

An interesting thing about this aspect is that it wouldn't even have to be at character creation. If a character should get permanently maimed at some point during the campaign, the player could actually be somewhat compensated for the new penalties by gaining a prof or two at the DM's choice. Kind of a "sorry that happened to you, here's a little something to help ease the pain" sort of thing.

Again, just a thought to go with, but I think it's fair. DM's would need to be careful about not going overboard on this, of course. Giving an angry player five profs because their character just lost an arm would be ridiculous, especially when there are ways in-game to get that arm back! Thus, it could get a little tricky. Still, an interesting idea.

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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  Colin Marcus on Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:54 pm

I like the character development idea, but agree it would have to be used carefully. Between World of Darkness, DC Heroes, and Knights of the dinner table... I've never really seen flaws worked well.

I suppose as a group effort between good player and good DM it could work. I just have flashes of one armed, color blind, hard of hearing people wandering around with peg legs and bounty's on their head...

In Marvel/DC we had flaws that gave stuff.... but they were taken... mostly to get stuff. Not because they made a better character. I think with our players and DMs we can avoid that, And I like the idea of writing a character and the DM determining value as opposed to just a book of stuff with prices on it.

Also a lifetime flaw for a one time bonus isn't something I would probably take advantage of. WoD has it set up for one XP point everytime your flaw interferes with you character... And I wasn't very pleased with those...
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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

Post  The Sub-Creator on Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:49 pm

That, and flaws aren't as much of a hindrance when one takes into account a high magic world. Ben--bless his heart--has already given us a wonderful example of how blindness in a character has virtually no true hindrances when magic is added into the equation. On that same token, magic can be used to restore severed arms, deafness, blindness (if the character wishes it), and pretty much any type of abnormality one can come up with. In fact, to suffer from any sort of abnormality quite literally has to be by the will of the player, because it's almost certain that there exists some magicks out there to remedy it.

Now, deciding on how a character's personality will affect them is just good roleplaying, but I would probably be willing to award someone a bit for honest dedication to a hindrance. I won't necessarily do it for a personality flaw that will add to "comical relief", as I'm pretty sure we have more than enough of that to go around our table. Wink

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Re: Too many proficiencies!!

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